ブログのネタがないため、日本を攻撃します

おはこんばんちわ。相変わらずブログ完全放置中のno_tenkiです。

私はexciteでブログを開設する前から、韓国のegloosのブログをやっていますが、
(つうか、そこがメインです)今日はそこをチェックしてたら見かけた記事を紹介します。
知られてる事実かも知れませんけど、元々嫌韓関係にはうとくて、さっぱりわかりません。
(なのに、なんでこんなブログを書いていたか、不思議でたまりませんw)
それではご覧になってください。(元の韓国のブログの記事はこれです)







以下そのまま転載

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

信じても信じなくても結構ですが、下記の資料は韓国を嫌う日本のインターネットユーザー、いわゆる嫌韓の手によって捏造されたものです。嫌韓らが韓国の反日感情を皮肉る目的で作ったものでして、私がなぜこういう主張が出来るかといいますと、証拠があるからです。

まずは最初の資料のソウル市民のインタビュー画面をご覧になってください。
e0068202_2259771.jpg
誰が見ても馬鹿だとしか思えないでしょ?では下のイメージを見ましょう。下のイメージは同じ場所で同じ人物を相手にしたインタビュー画面です。
e0068202_231940.jpg
インタビューの結論は結果的に日本と戦うという内容ですが少し考えてみるとニュアンスが違うということがわかります。

1枚目の内容はアメリカが北朝鮮を攻撃すればただ何の理由もなく唐突に第3者の日本を攻撃するというニュアンスが漂います。反日感情の塊みたいな人でなければ絶対に出てこない発言ですね。

しかし2枚目の内容を見てみましょう。同じく日本と戦うという内容ですが1枚目の内容が何の理由もなかったのと違って2枚目の内容は北朝鮮が同じ民族ということに前提が置かれています。

北朝鮮が同じ民族であるため北朝鮮を攻撃する国家とは戦うという民族意識による返答と、ただ理由もなく単純に「日本だから」攻撃するという反日感情はまったく別のニュアンスのはずです。

次はアンケート調査結果という二つ目の資料です。
e0068202_2381655.jpg
これもすごく荒唐無稽ですよね?アメリカが北朝鮮を攻撃するというのになぜ脈絡もなく第3者の日本を攻撃?

当然ながらこれも捏造されたものです。今度は下のイメージを見てみましょう。

e0068202_23102265.jpg
唐突な返答の「日本を攻撃する21.2%はただ空いているだけです…

空いているというのは無応答かわからないという返答だったことを意味します。
つまり、上の日本を攻撃する21.2%は捏造であることがわかります。
この意見を裏付ける資料がありますが次は我が国で上と同じ主題で実施されたアンケートの調査結果です。

e0068202_23103239.jpg
わからない/無応答が全体の21.2%です。

驚きましたか?上の資料に出た「日本を攻撃する」というおかしな結果と小数点まで一致します。

今まで書いた内容を総合すると、ネットで流布されている上記の資料は、冒頭で明かした通り韓国を嫌う日本のネットユーザー、いわゆる嫌韓が、韓国人の「反日感情」を普通の日本人に誇張して伝える目的で意図的に捏造した資料であることがわかります。

今は日帝時代ではありません。いくら韓国に反日感情が多いとしてもマスコミで公式的に実施するインタビューと世論調査であんな常軌を逸した話をする人はいません。

結論…あれはただの冗談だと理解した方が賢明です。何か起きたら「これは全部ノ・ムヒョンのせいだ」という冗談があるように、解決しづらい困ったことがある時に解決方法が浮かばなかったら「日本を攻撃する」と言いましょう


(↑注:もちろん本気ではなく、可笑しい言葉だから真似するというニュアンスですが、
「やっぱり日本を攻撃するんだ」と嫌韓に言われそうだwwwwでもまあそのまま翻訳)

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

*追記:要望があったので、最後のアンケートのほうは少し調べてみました。
(というか聞いたら親切な人が教えてくれただけですが)このニュースを見ますと、
文化日報社とKSOI(韓国社会世論研究所)が実施したアンケートらしいですね。
「アメリカ側に立つべきだ」が31.2%に過ぎなかったが「北朝鮮側に立つ」という
答えが47.6%も出たことが興味深い」とし詳細な分析をはじめていますが、
もちのろん、日本を攻撃するという答えはありません。KSOIの公式サイトでも
閲覧が可能。こいつは有料ですが、確かなのは日本のにの字も出ないってことです。


ちなみに、上記のブログは「これだから韓国はダメだ」といって
画像を真実だと言い張る韓国人(そういう人韓国にもかなりいます)
に対して書かれてるような節がありますからね~(参考までに)

んで、実際の21.2%は「わからない/無応答」でしたね。
考えてみれば、あの三つだけを合わせて100%なわけがないですからね。(笑)
こんな無茶な画像を疑いもせずに載せる「韓国はなぜ反日か」って、いったい…(笑)

まあ、無茶なサイトの話はともかく、誰が嘘つきなのか、
捏造なのか、本当にああいうふうに放送されたのか、
俺っちにはわかりません。(日本の番組知らねえ)
だから皆さんで検証をお願いします。よろしく!

それより1ヶ月前の東京観光が楽しすぎたんでまた行きたいという話をしたいものです(笑)
今までは翻訳のバイトをたまにこなす程度でしたが、日本で遊びたくなったので、今非常に
働きたがっています。(ニート脱出)通訳でも翻訳でもバイトでも社員でも構いませんので、
誰か仕事の依頼をメールでください。こんなダメ人間でよろしければ、精一杯働きます(笑)

あ、できればソウル内の会社がいいな…
そういえば俺もソウル市民ってことに(笑)

とにかく、ブログやる気なくしてて、どうもごめんなさいです…
ああーなにを書いたらいいかわからないよぉ (だみだこりゃ…

ps) どうやら有名らしい(笑)
わざわざ買く意味もなかったな…
[PR]
by no_tenki | 2007-09-18 23:27 | Comments(2612)
Commented by 子烏 at 2007-09-19 01:01 x
「日本を相手に戦います」は韓国を嫌う日本のインターネットユーザによる
嫌韓の手によって捏造されたものではなく、日本のテレビ局「テレビ朝日」の
報道に基づくもののようです。肝心の動画が消えてしまっているのが残念ですが。
(韓国語がわからないと見ても意味ないかも知れませんが…)
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/issoft/20050614

あと、二つ目の資料のハングルで書かれた表ですが
「誰が、いつ、誰に対して、どんなアンケートを行ったか」
がわからないと我々日本人には判断がつきませぬ。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-19 02:17 x
わかりやすい捏造だー。青年のインタビュー画面は1枚目が捏造、2枚目がオンエアどおりでしょう。2枚目ではフォントの使い方が一定なのに1枚目ではバラバラ。さらにその下のアンケート画面の左肩の天気予報のデザインや右肩にある「迫る……」云々との一貫性も2枚目にはあるけど1枚目には無い。1枚目と2枚目の画像が少しずれてるのは1枚目の画面がたまたまテレビ局が入れたタイトルが消えた瞬間だからで、そこをキャプって(第三者が)都合のいい文字を入れたんだと思う。(だから1枚目の「動画」は最初からこの世に存在しないはず)

その下のアンケート画面は空いていた灰色の部分に第三者が「日本」を加えただけ。「アメリカ」と「北朝鮮」と見比べると「日本」だけフォントが違うからこれも一目瞭然。

まあ、誰がどんな目的でやったことかは知りませんが、嫌韓も反日もこういう安手の捏造に引っかかって延々あーだこーだやってるのだとしたらお疲れ様としか言いようがない。
Commented at 2007-09-19 05:41 x
ブログの持ち主だけに見える非公開コメントです。
Commented at 2007-09-19 06:33 x
ブログの持ち主だけに見える非公開コメントです。
Commented by いつまで反日? at 2007-09-19 15:03 x
韓国はなぜ反日なんだろうね。
Commented by no_tenki at 2007-09-19 15:25
子烏 / そのアンケートについて、少し追加しました~

わはは / そうなんですか?検証お疲れ様です~

いつまで反日? / 「韓国はなぜ反日か?」というおかしなサイトがあってな。
「韓国では子供がこんな絵を描く」だの、「日本人には以外かも知れないが、
韓国は何でも日本と絡める」だの、ありえないことを断定しまくっているサイトさ。
これは悪意があるか誇大妄想かのどっちかだが、君もその類なんだろうね。
Commented by ぼぶ at 2007-09-19 16:21 x
言われてみれば、アンケートの円グラフで「無回答」が無いのは不自然ですね。
Commented by せりゅ at 2007-09-20 09:16 x
捏造だかなんだか知らないけど、北朝鮮は同じ民族だから日本とも戦いますよってのもおかしいと思うのは僕だけですか?
憲法9条の存在知ってたらそんな発想出てこないと思いますが。

てか、韓国人ていまだに日本は軍国主義を貫いてて、憲法9条なんてしらねーよって人がほとんどのイメージなんですが間違えてるでしょうか?w

憲法改正で戦争ができるようにしたがってるとかいう感じの韓国記事を見ることがありますが、今の日本の若い人で戦争始まったら国のために戦おうなんて人は1割もいないと思いますよ。
Commented by 通行人 at 2007-09-20 12:38 x
下のグラフに「日本を攻撃する」を加えたのは誰かがおもしろがってやったものですが、このレポート自体は捏造でもなんでもないですよ。その突飛なインタビューに当時2ちゃんねるを中心に騒ぎになったものです。YouTubeやniconicoを中心に探してみたけど、削除されてますね。
Commented by いつまで反日? at 2007-09-20 14:02 x
>no_tenki氏
>誇大妄想かのどっちかだが、君もその類なんだろうね。
妄想とは根拠のない想像をいう。自分は根拠を元に韓国や韓国人を想像してるけど。誇大かどうかは知らないが妄想はしていないつもりだが。
ただ自分が読む本は嫌韓が好んで読む本が多いのは確かだな。
Commented by いつまで反日? at 2007-09-20 14:30 x
>no_tenki氏
http://www.chosunonline.com/article/20070919000062
こういう記事を根拠にして韓国人の性格や人間性を想像するんですよ。誇大かどうかは知らないが。
>(作曲家に)海外の曲を与え、“盗作にならない程度に似せて書いてほしい”と要求することが多い、と聞いている
>8小節以上でないから盗作ではない
こういうところを読むと、韓国人は盗作に対して罪悪感はないなとか、著作権の概念は無いという想像をするのです。
少なくともこういう根拠がある以上妄想ではありませんから。
それとも朝鮮日報は親日派だから認めないと言うのが韓国人の主張でしょうか?
Commented by notki at 2007-09-20 15:55
ぼぶさん / 面白画像なんですからね。何の根拠にもなりゃしません。

せりゅさん / むにゃむにゃ、どっちもおかしいのは確かといいますか、
どういう流れなのか見ないことには、何とも言えないんですよね。はい。

通行人さん / 削除されたのは残念ですね。しかし2ちゃんで騒ぎになったってことは番組が実際にこういうふうに組まれていたってことであって、(編集とか、字幕とかがですね)騒ぎが起こったといって実はどうなのかは判らないと思いますね。私は2ちゃんねらーの韓国語能力は信用できませんし。

いつまさん / チョ・ギュチョル代表は「韓国音楽業界には盗作が多い」と指摘していますが、普段KPOPをあまり聴かないのでその「多い」がどれほどの多さかがわかりません。しかし殆どにしろ半分にしろ一部にしろ、その他の真面目な作曲家の方々、またはこのチョ・ギュチョル代表、それとこのセミナーを開いた方々が韓国人であることを否定することは出来ないでしょう。あと妄想とは細かい意味で言ってるのではなく、現実とかけ離れている想像を言ったわけでして、君が何を根拠にしたかは重要と思わないのね~にゅん。しかしあの例えはヒドス。バレたら絶対叩かれるよ。
Commented by いつまで反日? at 2007-09-20 16:18 x
>notki氏
>現実とかけ離れている想像を言ったわけでして
これが韓国人の妄想の定義か。新聞記事や本、データを元にした想像を韓国人が「妄想だ」と言っても気にする必要性はないという見解でよろしいようですな。
この場合むしろ韓国人が妄想とは何かを考え直すべきだと思うのだが。
Commented at 2007-09-20 19:37 x
ブログの持ち主だけに見える非公開コメントです。
Commented by 通行人 at 2007-09-20 21:14 x
いえいえ違いますよ。管理人さんはこの動画自体をねつ造といいたいようだけど、これは数年前に放送されたものです。当時実際に見ました。動画もYouTubeなどでアップされたものです。この中でねつ造なのは、円グラフのところに「日本を攻撃する」と付け加えたところです。インタビュー画面の「日本を攻撃する」というのも、2ちゃねらーがつけたわけでなく、テレビ局がつけた字幕です。2ちゃねらーがハングルを翻訳したものではありません。2ちゃんねるにもスレッドが立っていたので、運が良ければ誰かがアップしてくれるのでは?
Commented by 子烏 at 2007-09-20 22:00 x
アンケートの詳細、ありがとうございます。
2枚目の円グラフは捏造・・・なんでしょうね。
一嫌韓として恥ずかしい限りです。

しかし一枚目の「日本を相手には戦います」が本当に
テレビ番組によって作られたものだとしたら、
「韓国を嫌う日本のインターネットユーザによる
嫌韓の手によって捏造された」はデマであり
ネタ元のブログの人は嫌韓の捏造に対してデマで対抗していることに
なってしまいますね(悪意が有ったかどうかはわかりませんが)。
Commented by 子烏 at 2007-09-20 22:00 x
>「韓国では子供がこんな絵を描く」だの、「日本人には以外かも知れないが、
韓国は何でも日本と絡める」だの~

韓国の新聞記事を読んでいると「そこで日本を絡めるか!」と
ツッコミたくなることが多々あります。
特に自国の批判をしたいときに日本を絡める傾向があるようです↓
http://kimura-nobuo.cocolog-nifty.com/laboratory/2007/09/hy_98e7.html

それと韓国の人は物事を針小棒大にとらえる嫌韓が
いることを怒るよりも、自国のプロパガンダに子供を
利用する人たちがいて、それが韓国では割と許されている
ことを心配したほうがいいと思います。
いやできればそのままでいて欲しいんですけどね。私は嫌韓ですからw
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-20 22:32 x
インタビューの1枚目の「日本を相手に戦います」も捏造じゃねーの? 2枚目の「日本とも戦いますよ」はオンエアどおりだろうけど、両者のニュアンスの違いは認識しとかんと。

俺はこのときの質問が実際どうだったのかを知りたいな。どうせインタビュアーが「もし日本がアメリカの味方をしたら?」とか恣意的な聞き方をしたんじゃないの? じゃなきゃこういう答えにはならんだろフツー。(どうオンエアされたのか知らないけど)

海上での給油活動すらポシャりそうな昨今、実際には日本がアメリカの戦争に加担するっていう前提条件があり得ないわけで、そうだとしたら個人的にはこのインタビューの恣意性にまず問題を感じる。

まあ、そういうことをよく知らないで生半可に答えちゃった青年の発言に不快感を覚える人がいても理解できるが、まずは「日本を相手に戦います」「日本を攻撃」などと字幕を改変して、無意味に燃料投下したヤツの方を責めるべきだと思うけどな。こんなの許してたら嫌韓のレベルが疑われるだけ。
Commented by いつもお世話になってます at 2007-09-20 22:59 x
嫌韓の中の質の悪い人がやっていること
→見つけてきた「韓国人は反日」に符合するデータを、検証せずに掲載。

この「確認せずに嘘を掲載していること」に対してつっこみをいれる記事を書いているのにもかかわらず、

ここの管理人さんがやってること
→見つけてきた「嫌韓の人間はデータを捏造している」に符合するデータを、検証せずに掲載。


やってること一緒だって、ずいぶん前から言われているが、変わらない管理人さん。


そして、つっこまれたら「日本の番組知らねえ。だから皆さんで検証をお願いします。」って、そりゃないんじゃない?

今回の1件目は「嫌韓が捏造した」って証拠は、管理人さんは提示できてないよ。2件目は捏造だと思うけどな。同様に嫌韓のデータにも本当のことは沢山あって、間違いも含まれてるだけだがな。
Commented by 子烏 at 2007-09-20 23:28 x
>わはは
まあ、そういうことをよく知らないで~って知るわけないでしょ。
このインタビュー、2005年の話。
今2007年。今の状況を当時に当てはめて考えないの。
それに韓国と日本はアメリカと同盟組んでいるの。
いざと言う時は韓国と日本はアメリカと味方同士です、ってお約束をしているの。
でもそんな約束を無視して民族主義的な答えをするから彼(彼女?)は馬鹿にされてるの。
細かいニュアンス以前の問題があるの、この答えには。

それと一枚目の画像が捏造だとしたら私の張ったリンク先のコラムは
存在してないの。OK?
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-21 00:03 x
>小鳥
あー、ごめん、リンク先見てなかったわ(笑)。お茶の間受けを狙ったテレビ局の意図的な編集だったってことね。

そこは納得したが、それ以外は一般論で書いただけだからそんなに細かく突っ込まんでくれ。「海上給油」の話もたとえとして挙げただけだ。(実際問題としてすぐに戦争起こせないのは2年前もいまもそんなに変わらんだろう)

あと張ってくれたリンク先のコラムの人が言ってることの方が、俺にはよーくわかるんですけど。だって青年の発言、意図的に編集されてる可能性があるってことでしょ? そんな発言をとやかく言ってもしょうがなくね? まず編集の方を問題にすべきなんじゃないの?

(リンク先のリンク先が2ちゃんだったことにはとりあえず目をつぶろう。すごーく勘ぐれば、夕方のニュースから静止画のアップまで数時間。フォトショップ使える人なら文字の改変くらい充分可能。元の動画が消えてるのは、静止画の文字の改変をごまかすためだったと勘ぐることもできる。ただ、憶測に憶測を重ねてもしょうがないからこれは無視してもらっていい)

Commented by 通行人 at 2007-09-21 01:21 x
それは推測であって、なんら事実の証明はないよね。詭弁です。
意図的な編集があるというのなら、その証拠を出すべき。単純に考えても、なんら関係ない日本を引き合いに出すことはおかしいのでは?この動画に限らず、いまマスコミは必死になってYouTubeの動画を削除しまくってるけどね。まったく下衆の勘ぐり。どれひとつとして希望的観測の域を出てないじゃん。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-21 01:59 x
「推測」というのは正しいよ。ただ俺はなにも「希望」してないぞ。

俺は単に「なぜ似て非なる2枚の画像が存在するのか」を推理してるだけ。そこをすっとばして発言の中身を云々しても(この件に関しては)意味ない気がしてるだけだよ。

>意図的な編集があるというのなら、その証拠を出すべき

ゴメン、そりゃ無理だ。編集前の元テープを手に入れろってことでしょ? でもさ、あなただって「編集がなかった証拠」は出せないよね? それはお互いさま。

でも、もし「編集はなかった」っていう証拠が出てきたら俺は素直に謝るよ。「推理が間違ってました」って。
Commented by 通行人 at 2007-09-21 02:12 x
いや、そこまでしなくても、放送された動画があればわかること。
あやふやな記憶では吹き替えだけど、うっすらとハングルの音声は残っていたはず。それなら、管理人さんが理解できるでしょ。意図的な翻訳かどうかね。それ以上は、この人が劇団員でもない限りわからんわな。
Commented by notki at 2007-09-21 03:53
通行人さん / ごめんなさい。捏造だと断定しているのは、アンケートだけですから~
他のことは、意図的な字幕じゃなくても、例えばわざわざ変わった返事をする青年を
クローズアップして番組を組むとか、そういうことも考えられると想像したまで。

子烏さん / あなたのような嫌韓の方は応援できます。まあ日本を絡めると
ウケがいい読者ってのは確かに存在するみたいですからね。年取った人?
Commented by notki at 2007-09-21 03:56
わははさん / 俺も番組は見たいですねー実はそこまで見たくもないけど(ぇ)
とにかくあったら見ないと。そしたらスッキリするでしょうにね。こういうのに限って
資料が残ってなかったり詳細な情報がなかったりする気がしないでもないです。

いつも…さん / そういうたちの悪い方々っていますよね。というかわりと多い。
そういうのがなければ俺も嫌韓に対して反感を持たなかったと思います。
個人の価値観や性格で、嫌いなものを嫌うのは当然のことですからね。
普通に嫌うのは大歓迎ですけど曲解されたりするのがやなだけですね><
ちなみに俺は最初から事実どおりに「日本の番組知らねえ」と言ってます。(笑)
何が捏造で何が真実かは、皆様方に検証を任せているわけですよ。はい。
Commented by 一読者 at 2007-09-21 05:13 x
http://money6.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/seiji/1187550019/

捏造関連はこのスレに詳しいですね
Commented by いつまで反日? at 2007-09-21 14:39 x
捏造にだまされないようにしたいのは誰でもそうだと思うが、区別するのは難しいのがほとんど。
捏造であることが判明したとき、事後処理の仕方も問題だし、捏造した件数も考慮すべき。
国レベルで捏造を探せば多かれ少なかれ出てくるかもしれないが、韓国の捏造は多いと感じる。ファンウソク教授の件も新しく感じるし。
Commented by 螺旋 at 2007-09-21 19:56 x
嫌韓でも親韓でもない普通の人間には
嫌韓ってウザいんだよね、正直。
最初の頃は多少新鮮で面白くもあったけど、今はねぇ……
相手が誰であっても、他人を貶めて喜ぶのって、
度を過ぎると日本人の感性には合わないんだよな。
Commented by at 2007-09-22 02:28 x
やっぱり日本を攻撃するんですね(笑


「あなたは日本を攻撃しますか?」
「いいえ、韓国人です。韓国は日本の植民地でした。」(笑
Commented by いつもお世話になってます at 2007-09-22 13:05 x
> いつも…さん / そういうたちの悪い方々っていますよね。というかわりと多い。
> そういうのがなければ俺も嫌韓に対して反感を持たなかったと思います。
> 個人の価値観や性格で、嫌いなものを嫌うのは当然のことですからね。
> 普通に嫌うのは大歓迎ですけど曲解されたりするのがやなだけですね><

んー、ここからはっきりは読み取れないけれど、管理人さんが反感を持ってるのは嫌韓の人の「検証無しに韓国人の変態的な記事をHPに掲載すること」じゃないかと前々から思ってるんですよ。結果として事実以上に韓国人に対するイメージを貶めますからね。

でも管理人さんの記事も、同じようにいつも検証無し。だから、結果として単なる「事実以上に嫌韓の人を貶めるための記事」になっちゃってる。
批判しているポイントを自分もやってる。だから残念ながら全く説得力のない記事になってる、というか単なる嫌韓記事の裏返し、もしくはそれ以下(以下な理由は検証が入ってる嫌韓サイトも少なくないから)なんですよね。


> ちなみに俺は最初から事実どおりに「日本の番組知らねえ」と言ってます。(笑)

これはちょっと私が誤解してました。すみません。
Commented by 一見 at 2007-09-22 13:56 x
>ゴメン、そりゃ無理だ。編集前の元テープを手に入れろってことでしょ? でもさ、あなただって「編集がなかった証拠」は出せないよね? それはお互いさま。

悪魔の証明www

意図的な編集がある、と言うのならばそう判断した根拠があるはず。
それを上げればいいだけ。
Commented by まーぼーはるさめ at 2007-09-22 14:17 x
こんにちはいつもお疲れ様です。
小生、この画像は知っていましたがねつ造だったんですね。知らなかったです。というか気にもしてなかった。「はいはい。反日反日。いつものこといつものこと」で流してました(笑)。('A`)

管理人さんほど日本語がお出来ならすぐに働けるものと思っていましたが難しいのですか?最近韓国における日本語の地位が急低下というのは本当なんですね。昔は、韓国大企業などで「日本語が理解できる」となると就職も昇進も断然有利だったと聞いております。今では英語が一番だそうですね。小生も英語努力します。orz
効果的な外国語学習法ってありませんか・・・?管理人さんのようになりたいです。


>(働くなら)ソウル内の会社がいいな
日本で事業を展開している、事業展開を考えている企業とかだったら営業・知財・法務で就職できると思うんですけどーソウルにいっぱいあるのではないですか?少ないですか?
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-22 15:10 x
>一見
ちゃんと過去レス読んでね。あ、「一見」だから無理かw

小烏さんから「リンク先」を見ろと言われ→飛んだら「テレビ局による意図的な編集の可能性もある」と書かれたコラムだったので→「あら、そーゆー可能性もあるのね」とコメントしたら→「いつまで……さんから「そんなの事実の証明にならん。証拠出せ」と言われたので→「証拠は出せません(出せるわけねー)」と答えただけであって。

だから、べつに俺は「判断」も「断定」もしてないの。単に「可能性に思いを巡らせた」だけ。「推測」だってはっきり書いたし。結果として「悪魔の証明」的な言い方になっちゃったのは、「似て非なる2枚の静止画」が現実に存在している以上そこになんらかの「改変」が介在したのは事実なわけで(理由や目的はわからんけど)、順序から行けば「改変があった証拠」を俺に求める前にまず「改変がなかった証拠」の方を先に出すのが筋だろうと思ったから。

だから、「一見」しただけで言葉尻に噛み付くのはやめてね。生産的な話にならん。
Commented by 通行人 at 2007-09-22 15:30 x
この記事は元はDCインサイドニュースからだと思うが、
http://www.dcnews.in/news_list.php?code=ahh&id=249425
2chにもそのスレが立ってたよ。今は落ちてしまったので有料ログインの●がないと読めないけど、一応URLを
http://news21.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/news4plus/1190274959/
DCインサイドニュースによる「元のテレビインタビューおよび画像は嫌韓の捏造で」嫌韓が捏造してまで韓国を貶めているという論旨に対してのレスを分類すると、
・そもそも捏造ではない(俺はコレ。実際にこの動画を見たし。)
・韓国人は極めて攻撃的な反日である(反日の例を列挙)
・どうしてこの様な記事を書くか判らない。いまさら韓国人の反日を隠そうとしても遅い。
・どちらにしろ、アメリカと北朝鮮が戦争になったら日本を攻撃しますって事の追認だ。日本を攻撃する意志があることにかわりがない。
・この元の動画は見つからなかったが、同様のインタビューの動画はまだ多数ある。http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KDkIuz2GTw
・これは捏造じゃなくてネタ画像。普通にみれば一目で分かるもの。嬉々として「捏造の証拠」とするのは恥ずかしいだけだ。
・5年も経ってこれはまずいと気がついたのか?
Commented by 子烏 at 2007-09-22 17:54 x
>わはは
>「似て非なる2枚の静止画」が現実に存在している以上そこになんらかの「改変」が介在したのは事実なわけで

その理屈でいくと「日本とも戦いますよ。(北朝鮮は)同じ民族ですからね」
の画像のほうが捏造された可能性が高まるわけで。
だって少なくとも「日本を相手に戦います」の画像には言及している人が
いるわけですから(すごーく勘ぐれば~の話が本当なら
動画を置いていたサイトの人が文字を改変したことになるが
それならわざわざ動画を公開する理由が無い)。

同じインタビュー内容を別々のニュース番組で使いまわしたんじゃかと
思うんだけど。それなら天気予報と見出しが異なっているのも説明つくし。
相変わらず動画見つからんけど…。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-22 18:44 x
>その理屈でいくと「日本とも戦いますよ。(北朝鮮は)同じ民族ですからね」 の画像のほうが捏造された可能性が高まるわけで

ぼくの中にはその可能性もモチロン残してあるよ。別に「高まって」はないと思うけど(笑)

「日本を相手に戦います」に言及しているひとが多いのは、単にネット上でこっちの静止画がひとり歩きしてるからに過ぎないでしょ? いくら「オンエアで観た」と言っても、オンエア時に字幕が「日本を相手に戦います」になってたか「日本とも戦いますよ。(北朝鮮は)同じ民族ですからね」になってたかまでは覚えてないよね、フツー。嫌韓にしたらどっちにしたってカチンと来るんだろうし(笑)

>同じインタビュー内容を別々のニュース番組で使いまわしたんじゃかと思うんだけど

でも、どっちも「スーパーJチャンネル」になってるからなー。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-22 18:45 x
一応ぼくの推理:オンエア時の字幕は「日本とも戦いますよ。(北朝鮮は)同じ民族ですからね」→その後、誰かがアンケート画面とともにネタとして流通させるために加工。(字幕を「日本を相手に戦います」と変えただけでなく画面の中に質問まで盛り込んで、静止画の意味をわかりやすくした)→「日本を相手に戦います」がネタとしてひとり歩き。

あくまで「推理」っすよ(←いちいち言い訳すんのメンドクセー)。実際のところは動画が出てくるまでわかりませんなあ。

>通行人さん/情報どうもっす。よくわかんないんですけど、このインタビュー5年前のものってことっすか? だとしたら2年前に2ちゃんにあがってたのはソースとしては意味がないってことになりますね。オンエア時の動画じゃなくて、流通している画像に乗っかっただけということになるから。
Commented by 子烏 at 2007-09-22 19:49 x
>わはは
リンク先にはこう書いてあるんだが

>動画を見てみたが、意図的に編集しているようだ。

>レポーター:「アメリカが北朝鮮を攻撃したらどうしますか?」
>ソウル市民:「当然北朝鮮の味方をします」
>(おそらく編集で間の画面がカットされて)
>ソウル市民:「日本を相手に戦います」

画像が嫌韓によって加工されたものだとしたら
この文章は完全に嘘になるんですが。
わざわざ動画へのリンクを張って、文章起こししてまで
嘘を書くとは思えませんが。
よほど嫌韓のことを悪者にしたいようで。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-22 20:15 x
>子烏
きみはふたつのことをごっちゃにしてるよ。(つーか、メンドクサイから俺もごっちゃに書いてきたけど)

1、テレビ局がインタビューを恣意的に編集した可能性
2、オンエアされた動画を元に第三者が偽の静止画をつくりだした可能性

いま話題にしてたのはふたつめの方。べつに俺は事実を知りたいだけで、無意味に嫌韓を悪者にする意図はない(そもそも「嫌韓」というイデオロギーには興味すらない)。ただ、いろんな可能性が残されているのに結論ありきの議論しかできない一部嫌韓のメディアリテラシーを疑ってるだけ。

もし「反日」による捏造を批判したいなら、まず身内の捏造(ネタ?なんでもいいけど)を徹底検証できるくらいの能力を身につけてからじゃないと「嫌韓」として説得力ねーんじゃないの? 余計なお世話かもしれないけど。
Commented by 通行人 at 2007-09-22 21:13 x
動画については当時実際にみたよ。内容については伝えられているとおりで2の捏造はなし。ただ、元の動画自体がないので証明は出来ないけどね。

1についての可能性はある。朝鮮語は出来ないので確かめようにない。ただ一時話題になったものなので、翻訳等で意図的な編集があれば誰かしらが指摘すると思うけどね。当然、民団や韓国大使館がチェックしていると思うからね。

あの動画を見ていない人からはそのような可能性について考えるのは、論理的にあるのかも知れないけど、見た者からするとありえない。

あと、5年というのは、そのスレッドにあった同様のレスの中で、文章的に一番良かったものをだしただけ。個人的には2、3年前の印象がある。2005年の6月放送との言及もあったけど、いずれも確証はなし。ただ論旨としては、昔の放送をなぜいまごろというところ。
Commented by 子烏 at 2007-09-22 21:36 x
徹底検証した結果が
「テロップのフォントが一定でないから上の画像は捏造に違いない」なんですか?
ネタ元のブログの人もわははさんも「韓国はなぜ反日か?」
を笑えませんね。

>通行人
テレビ朝日の過去ログにありました。
おそくら2005年6月6日の特集でしょう。
http://www.tv-asahi.co.jp/super-j/0506/06.html
Commented by 通行人 at 2007-09-22 21:53 x
>でも、どっちも「スーパーJチャンネル」になってるからなー。
 これについては同じテレ朝の別の番組が、引用する形で放送したのではと言う指摘がある。左上の天気予報のフォームが違うから。その番組で改めて訳して字幕を付けたのでは?と言う説。
 グラフへ「日本を攻撃」という項目を付け加えたのは批判があった。見た者からするとネタというのは判るし、見てなくても常識的にこれを真実と思うのはメディアリテラシーの面からもどうかと思うけどね。でもこれを真に受ける人もいたのは確かだし考えどころ。
 動画があれば一発だけど、昔のだから出てこなかったね。某韓国情報の動画サイトが残していることを期待するけど。
 ただ、この主張を元に嫌韓を批判するのは論理的に弱すぎるよ。逆に言えば動画という一時資料あったのだから、もしその主張どおりだったら嫌韓の捏造を証明できるわけで、その裏取りの作業をしていないのは怠慢としか言いようがない。
 この話をいまごろ出してきたのも、韓国の新聞のサイトが過去の記事を検索できないようにしたのも、都合の悪い主張は消して、記憶が曖昧になってから反撃をする作戦ではと思えるわけです。まっ、これはあくまでも推測ですがw
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-22 22:26 x
>子烏よ、なぜここで一番最初のレスを引っ張りだす? 言っておくが俺は「徹底検証」はしてないし、する気もないぞ(笑)。普段は「嫌韓」なんぞ興味ないから、この件についてもここで得た情報でしか俺は判断できんのだよ。で、そのつど「こういう見方もできるぞ」と個人的見解を述べてるだけだ。その後のレスをすっ飛ばされたことを悲しく思うぞ。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-22 22:29 x
>通行人/ふたたび情報どうもっす。俺もいま同じインタビュー素材をテレビ局が時期を置いて(字幕を差し替えて)再利用したんじゃないかと疑ってたとこです。それなら「5年前」と「2、3年前」の時期のずれも説明つくし<って、なんか電波とか言われそうな推理だけど。

>この主張を元に嫌韓を批判するのは論理的に弱すぎ/「批判」したつもりはないんだけど(批判できるほど情報持ってないし)、ところどころ嫌韓に対して無意味に嫌みな書き方をしていることは否めないかも(子烏にもそういう印象を与えているようだ)。だとしたら申し訳ない。

最近このブログに偶然流れ着いてうっかりここ1年ぐらいのコメント欄を一気読みしちゃったから、なんかちょっと「嫌韓」というイデオロギーに対して冷静になれてないんだと思う。「醜い」としか言いようのない書き込みも多かったし。俺の人間力不足だ、許せ。
Commented by まあなんというか at 2007-09-23 01:49 x
わはは氏のは「推理(あらかじめ与えられた何らかの前提から新しい結論を論理的に導き出す働き)」と言うより、「憶測(確かな根拠もなくいいかげんに推測すること)」ですな。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-23 02:25 x
「憶測」「推測」「推量」「想像」……言葉の定義が気に入らなかったらなんでもいいよ。「似て非なる2枚の画像の存在」がミステリーぽかったから、条件反射で「推理」って書いちゃっただけで。(電波っぽいって自覚もしてるしw)

ただ、小烏や通行人から教えてもらった情報によって俺の「憶測」も姿を変えつつあるとだけ言っておく(その点についてはふたりに感謝)。たかが「憶測」でも、なにか考えを進めるきっかけにできるのなら思考停止よりはマシだってこと。

そんなことより「自分の意見」があるんならそれを書けば? なんにも伝わらないよ。
Commented by いつまで反日? at 2007-09-23 03:09 x
人間誰でも正しいことは言いたいが、結果として間違っていたなんてことはいくらでもあるものだ。
嫌韓だから嫌韓の味方をしようとは思わないが、嫌韓のいうこと1から10までのひとつが間違っていたからといって、その全てを否定するのは韓国人の間違い。
残りの正しい9個の情報を認める精神は韓国人に無いのかな?
「韓国はなぜ反日か」というHPのなかに事実と認めざるを得ない情報があったとき、それは意地でも認めませんというのが韓国人の性格か?
(サッカーという)スポーツに政治問題歴史問題を持ち込むのは、スポーツの精神に反するぞ。
「戦犯国のみなさんようこそ」なんて垂れ幕も民度の低さを世界に知らしめるだけなのだが、「韓国はなぜ反日か」というHPの情報は一切認めないというのは間違いだな。
ちなみに日本を戦犯国というなら、当時韓国は日本だったから韓国も戦犯国になるのだよ。
戦犯をよく勉強するんだな、戦勝国にも戦犯行為はあるから。
それから日本は日清、日露、第一次世界大戦、元寇とほとんど勝ってるんだよ、1000年負けなかった珍しい国でもあるんだよ。
Commented by いつまで反日? at 2007-09-23 03:10 x
>螺旋氏
自分は嫌韓でも親韓でもなかった頃があるわけで、客観的に韓国の情報を知ることによって嫌韓になっていった。
わざわざ韓国を貶めすつもりはないよ。
Commented by いつまで反日? at 2007-09-23 03:16 x
A:アメリカが北朝鮮を攻撃したら?
Q:日本とも戦いますよ、(北朝鮮は)同じ民族ですから。
どのみち的外れな回答であることは言えるよな。
もしアメリカが北朝鮮を攻撃しても、(今のところ)日本は関係ないぞ。
Commented by notki at 2007-09-23 07:54
にゃー多いー>< ←可愛いふりすんませんww


ところであの「日本に核ミサイルでも打ち込むべきなんだ!」とオッサンかいう動画あるじゃない。放送されたやつ。それ一応韓国語を言ってるんだけど日本語吹き替えがされてて何言ってるか先っちょしか聞こえないんだよね。だから検証ができなかった。字幕つけてるのに吹き替えまでしなくていいじゃんーと思った。それが少し気持ち悪かった。

このエントリーで取り上げている番組はどんな感じだったんだろうか。今言ったような強引な感じの番組を連想したので、嫌な番組だろうな~とか勝手に思った。(完全に先入観だけどね。見てないからわかりまへん)
Commented by notki at 2007-09-23 08:07
>まーぼーはるさめさん

あの、俺自身に働く気があんまりないってのがたぶん一番の問題だと思うんです…(汗)大企業とかはダメなんでしょうけど働き口ぐらいありそうな気がするんです…が…なんというかいまいち能動的になれないというか…

最近の翻訳のバイトも誰かがスカウトしてくださって、そりゃあ感謝しながら一生懸命働いたんですが、自分で履歴書書いて面接とかやる気が起きないよ…ダメ人間ですいません。このままだったら絶対にニートだよ…

つうか大学入学の面接のときも隣の苦学生の方を見て(工場で働きながら日本語勉強してる人だった当時の俺より上手かったし)「この人はこんなに一生懸命なのに俺みたいなのが適当な気持ちで受けちゃって恥ずかしいな」とか思ったしおれ面接や競争が苦手です 心が折れる

めっちゃダメ人間です社会不適合者なんです
Commented by notki at 2007-09-23 08:13
で、効果的な外国語学習法ですが、好きになるしかないんじゃないですかね。
好きな映画や曲を見つけて楽しむのです。一番の上達法はそれだと思います。
メタルギアを作った小島秀夫監督も映画を見ろと仰いました。(ネットラジオで)

文法とか学術的にどう接近すればいいかとか俺には教えられません。
(英語、さっぱりですし…orz) そんなわけで一緒に頑張りましょう!
Commented by まあなんというか at 2007-09-23 11:56 x
>わはは
「わかりやすい捏造だー。」
君の第一声がこれだ。no_tenki氏でさえ今回はこれが捏造だかどうだかわからないと書いているのに、これで思考しているつもりならドンマイと言うしかない。電波自覚してるぐらいだから、思考しても無駄なのだろうが。
まあ、「わかりやすい捏造」ではなかったことに気付いたのなら君にとっては進歩だな。おめでとう。

ただし、他の人には「わかりやすい捏造」ではないことは最初からわかっていることなので進歩ではない。君があまりにアホな憶測(下衆の勘繰り)を次から次に披露するから諭してくれたのだよ。呼び捨てせずに、もっともっと感謝しときなさい。
「似て非なる2枚の静止画」が存在してもさほど不思議ではない。それを理由に「改変があった」とはいえない、ということは理解できたかな?
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-23 14:40 x
だーかーらー(笑)。あの食いつきかたはマズかったと思ってるよ。「嫌韓童貞」の勇み足だ。ただ、これ読んでるひとは(俺も含めて)「嫌韓」に関するリテラシーを豊富に身につけたひとばかりではないという認識はあってもよくねえか? そういうひとには俺の初歩的なやりとりを追っかける意味はあったくらいには思うけどな。

事実、円グラフの方は今回ネタだと初めて知ったひともいたじゃん。通行人さんの俺に対する反論が示唆してくれてるものも多いし、狂言回しとしては割といい働きしたと思うぞ(笑)。

嫌韓がなにかムーブメントを起こしたいのかどう知らないけど、本来は俺も含む「嫌韓」のループ外にいるひとを議論にとりこんでかないと真の存在意義は見えてこないんじゃないの? 「いや、仲良しグループでよろしくやってるんで近づかないで」ということならこれ以上言うことはないが。

まあ、きみがこの件に関して「下衆の勘ぐり」以上の情報を持ってることを期待してるよ(本気で)。俺が「書けば」と言ったのは俺への非難じゃなくてそっちね。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-23 14:43 x
たださ、「似て非なる2枚の静止画」が存在するのは俺にとってはいまだに不思議だぞ(笑)

繰り返すけど、俺は「嫌韓」でも「嫌・嫌韓」でも「反日」でもないからインタビューで青年が喋った内容には実は興味がない(実際に「反日的」だったとしても構わない)。ただマスコミで流れたとおぼしきそっくりな画像が2枚あるミステリーには興味がある。広義の「改変」があったってことにね。

で、どうしてこれがきみにとっては「改変があったとは言えない」ことになっちゃうのかというと(子烏さんのコメントからも感じたんだけど)、要は「嫌韓が改変したわけではない」ことが大事なわけでしょ? 俺、それが驚くのね。俺にとっては誰がやったって問題だから。テレビ局でも、愉快犯でも、韓国人でも。だから今回のことが嫌韓の仕業ではなかったことだけ証明されても、俺はぜんぜんホッとしないわけよ。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-23 14:45 x
そもそも俺みたいな一般市民にとって「捏造」という単語には、「嫌韓の手による」とか「反日の手による」とか「嫌韓・反日に関連する」とか「ネタとは違ってマジな」とかいう変な意味はついてないからさ。こういう類いの話すんのにそういう言葉のセンシティビティが必要だってことも初めて知ったよ。

あ、あと普段あんまネットに住んでないんでハンドルネームに敬称をつける文化があるってことすらよく知らなかったぜ。なんか最初に誰かに呼び捨てされたんでそれに倣っただけなんだけど。通行人さん、子烏さん、ごめんねー。

あー、メンドクセ(笑)
Commented by 日本に帰化した朝鮮人 at 2007-09-23 18:24 x
こんな面白いblogがあったなんてもっと前から見てれば良かったです。
今時インターネットに親しんでいる人で、マスコミの情報を鵜呑みにする人も少ないでしょうけど、許されるシャレとそうでないものはありますね。
前後の経緯を詳しく理解しているわけではありませんが、とりあえず他人のblogのコメント欄で言い合いしてるのは日本人のメンタリティから見て異常だと思いましたw
Commented by ポンチョ at 2007-09-23 21:13 x
 嫌韓と言っているが、嫌韓を過大評価しすぎではないか?嫌韓とはイデオロギーではなくて、韓国の反日へのアンチテーゼでしかないぞ。韓国が反日を辞めれば自然消滅する存在。ただ、韓国のメディアは嫌韓を右翼と決めつけ、ここの管理人さんは韓国に反日などないというからおかしな話になる。
 この映像について言えば、そもそも韓国人が「日本を攻撃する」と言ってしまってるんだもの。そりゃ、反発するでしょ?それに対して、韓国人自身が過激な行動を戒め、「穏便な解決を望む」とか言えばそもそも丸く収まる話。でも、実際には、「この映像は嫌韓が捏造した」と言ってしまうからおかしな話になる。
 いつまでも反日さんの「嫌韓のいうこと1から10までのひとつが間違っていたからといって、その全てを否定するのは韓国人の間違い。」に賛成。個人的には韓国人がこの様な思考法を採る限り、物事が前には進まないでしょう。韓国社会の中では説得力のある話かもしれないが、外国人特に日本人と議論するときにこんな論理展開では誰も納得しないよ。
Commented by 子烏 at 2007-09-23 21:14 x
>日本に帰化した朝鮮人
本人がブログ放置宣言だしてますからね…。
「こっちで勝手にやっていいんだな」って解釈されても
仕方ないと思います。
それが間違っていると言うのなら
わざわざ人を煽るような文章を付け加えないことです。
Commented by 社会人 at 2007-09-24 04:00 x
子烏さん

>本人がブログ放置宣言だしてますからね…。 「こっちで勝手にやっていいんだな」って解釈されても 仕方ないと思います。

あのー、恥ずかしくありませんか?全くもって泥棒の屁理屈と同じじゃないですか。ブログ放置宣言出してるから「こっちで勝手にやっていいんだな」という理屈は通るものではないと思いますが。???不快でたまりません。
Commented by くぁz at 2007-09-24 04:25 x
>「韓国はなぜ反日か?」というおかしなサイトがあってな。「韓国では子供がこんな絵を描く」だの、「日本人には以外かも知れないが、韓国は何でも日本と絡める」だの、ありえないことを断定しまくっているサイトさ。<

どさくさに紛れて「子供が書いた反日の絵」を否定してんじゃないよ^^
Commented by いつまで反日? at 2007-09-24 08:33 x
>ありえないことを断定しまくっているサイトさ。<
どこがありえないのか説明、証明すればいいと思うが。
Commented by umi at 2007-09-24 11:16 x
ははは、まだこのブログやってたんだー?
相変わらず「韓国は反日じゃない」と言いたいわけね。
仮にこれが捏造だったとしてもそういう結論にはならんから。
子供の反日絵の事実も消せないし、こんな↓画像もある。

http://blog106.fc2.com/n/nidasoku/file/20070923125209.jpg

まあこれも捏造なのかもねーw
Commented by 子烏 at 2007-09-24 14:56 x
>社会人
おそらく誤解されてます。
「こっちで勝手にやっていいんだな」って言うのは
こっちで話し合いを進めていいんだなって言う意味であって
「好き勝手に荒らしていいんだな」って意味ではありません。」

事実、言い合い(というか議論)にはなってますが
内容はこの記事に沿ったものになっています。
ブログ主さんも「検証は皆さんにまかせます」
と言ってますし。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-24 16:06 x
ちょっと違う視点で考えた。ソースは全部ココ↓

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%91%E3%83%BCJ%E3%83%81%E3%83%A3%E3%83%B3%E3%83%8D%E3%83%AB

これによると、スーパーJチャンネルの天気予報表示開始は2002年。さらに番組ロゴの刷新が2003年とのことなので、すくなくともインタビューの放映自体はそれ以降。

子烏さんのソースによれば放映日は2005年6月6日(月曜特集)の可能性が大。通行人さんがオンエアで見たのがこの日なら、この時点での字幕は「日本を相手に戦います」。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-24 16:08 x
じゃあ「……同じ民族ですからね」バージョンは?

天気予報のロゴの仕様が地方によって違うのは、よく考えたら当たり前だった。おそらく「前橋」はテレビ朝日(ANN)仕様で、「津」は朝日放送(ABC)仕様?

字幕の違いだけはまだよくわからない。東京のスタジオに小宮の悦っちゃんがいる状況で、地方ごとに違う字幕を出してるとは思えない。

ただ、ソースによれば2005年以降は「拡大スペシャル」として過去に取り上げた特集をもう一度放送みたいなこともしてるらしいし、あるいは別の日の似たような特集のために同じ素材テープを使って字幕を入れ直した可能性もある。

どっちのバージョンが先か後かは不明。子烏さんのソースを地道にたどればヒントがあるかもしれないが、ちょっとくじけた(笑)
Commented by まあなんというか at 2007-09-24 16:41 x
>わはは
全くしょうがないやつだな。

お前が電波的思考の持ち主ならわからなくてもしょうがないが、同じ映像を時間や番組、局を超えて使いまわすことは良くある。それぞれの場面で同じ元テープから別のテロップを張っていれば、いくら広義でも改変とは言えないだろう?「あったとはいえない」とはそういうことだ。もちろん間違ってもらっては困るが、だからといって「改変がなかった」という証拠にもならん。
まあその前に、上の人たちが問題にしてるのは「嫌韓による捏造(改変)の証拠」の話だから、勝手に「広義の改変」の話をするのはダメな議論の見本なので控えるように。

マスコミによる恣意的な編集の可能性は残っているが、韓国に興味ある人ならば、そういうことが日常的に起こっていることは知っているよ。でも、元テープにアクセスできない場合は、ここで騒いでもしょうがないだろ。だからさほど興味がない。
Commented by まあなんというか at 2007-09-24 16:43 x
この件に関して私の意見?今回俺は得るものはない。no_tenki氏の投げやりで逃げ腰なコピペ記事で、自称「反日ではない韓国人」に対する不信感をまた一歩前進させたぐらい。コピペな上に逃げ腰だから何も言うことはない。

俺が韓国、嫌韓、ここの管理人のいずれの記事であろうと気にいらないことは、事実を曲解して「真実がわかったー」かのように公言することや、それを元に誰かを誹謗する行為だ。
お前の場合は「わかりやすい捏造だー。」以降に何を書いたか思い出して反省するがいい。といっても、お前の場合は、自分がやってる行為が推理とかいう理論的なものではないことにさえ気付けばそれでいいから、さほど気にするな。

それからもう一つ教えてやろう。アホじゃないなら見りゃわかっただろうが、ここでも敬称をつける文化などない。ただ、感謝したなら敬称を付けるのがいいのじゃない?というただのお節介だ。
まあ私とお前では興味が違うようだから、頑張ってくれたまえ。
Commented by まあなんというか at 2007-09-24 16:56 x
って、字幕の違いの可能性については少しは自分で気付いたようだね。おめでとう。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-24 17:14 x
↑ねーねー、なんでいつもあとだしジャンケンなの? ぜーんぶわかってんなら先に教えてくれればいいのに、ケチ(><)

議論をしていた相手から電波よばわりされても気にならないけど、議論をした覚えのない君から言われる筋合いはない気がすごくする。あと、過去レスのことをいちいち蒸し返すこととか、君が嫌いであろうどこかの国の一部のひとになんか似てるよ。

俺は得るものがあると思うからここにいるけど、得るものがないと思うんなら来るのやめればいいじゃん。
Commented by まあなんというか at 2007-09-24 18:38 x
は?
後だしじゃんけんて、何の事を言っているのだ?
「同じ映像が繰り返し使われること」なら、お前、本気で、後出ししないと書けないような事だと思ってるわけ?それとも他のことか?ちなみにブラウザの都合でリロードしてなく、お前が書いた文章を読まずにアップした。これは謝る。だから3つ目の文章をつけた。

あと、電波ってのは俺への返答でも自分で「電波っぽい」て書いてるじゃないか。これを引用した軽いironyだから筋合いはある。

それから、俺を韓国と結びつけてチープな皮肉の言葉浴びせても意味ないよ。
だいたい、「遠い昔の先祖がやったかどうかわからない、しかも何度も謝罪していること」と、「おまえ自身が数日前に実際に書いたこと」を結びつけるのは無理がある。お前は反省せずに話を別方向に持って行っただけだったから、蒸し返されてもしょうがない。きっちり書いた事には責任を取れ、と書いているのだ。

最後に、この記事から得るものはなかったが、このサイトはよく見てる。俺は今、お前に言いたいことがあったからここに居た。お前が曲解して知ったかしなくなったならば、もう用はない。
さらば。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-25 02:03 x
↑あ、消えた☆

>notkiくん
なんか嫌韓のことよくわからんまま好奇心で食いついちゃったせいで、スレひっかき回しちゃってごめんねー。ひっかき回しちゃった責任上、スレネタの方に話を戻しておきます。

俺が不用意な食いつき方をしちゃったインタビュー青年。どうやら同じニュース番組で違う日に使われたものみたい。

ただ「スーパーニュースJチャンネル」ってnotkiくんが想像してるような「強引な感じの番組」とかじゃなくて、日本の夕方の時間帯でやってる普通の報道系番組。たぶん字幕を入れ直したのには特に深い意味はなかったんだと思う(←勝手な予想)。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-25 02:04 x
字幕のつけかたを比べると(証拠はないけど)たぶん青年の実際の台詞は「……同じ民族ですからね」のニュアンスに近かったんだろうと思う。それが別バージョンでは「日本を相手に攻撃します」に要約(?)されてしまったと。

ただそれはたぶん放映上の尺の都合とか、なんとなくお茶の間受けしそうとか、話がわかりやすそうとか、単純にテレビ局側が(深く考えないで)やったことなんじゃないかという気がします(だから問題ないのかというのは別問題だけど)。

で、悲しいかな(「反日」に興味のない)一般的な視聴者にとってはどっちにしても大差ないというのが実状だと思います。テレビって一瞬で流れ去ってしまうから。「あ、そーなのね」くらいで。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-25 02:05 x
俺がコワいなーと思ったのは、それがいきなり今回のように出所のまったく違う円グラフと並べられてひとつの「意図」のもとで並べられてしまうと、(「反日」や「嫌韓」に詳しくない)多くのひとはやっぱり見誤ってしまうだろうということです(俺もそのひとりです)。今回だって実際に韓国人のブログに「嫌韓の手によって捏造されたもの」としてまとめて紹介されてたわけですよね?

ふたつの画像を誰かが意図をもって組み合わせたのか、偶然同じ場所に流れついてしまったのかはわかりません。ただ、「出所のまったく違う画像が、ある意図のもとで並んでいる」というのがたぶん真相にいちばん近いんだと思います。

これが「ネタ」か「捏造」かとかは、もう俺にはお手上げっす。受け手次第でどうとでもなるってとこでしょうか。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-25 02:06 x
つーか、こういうことホントにみんな最初からわかってたの? ちょっと騙されかけて恥ずかしいの俺だけ? いまこうしてこれを書いてること自体間抜けなのか?

ただ、普段この手の問題を能動的に知ろうとは思ってない大多数の人間には、たぶん俺くらいのリテラシーしかないと思うんだけどなー。

最後に、なんの予備知識も持たずにこのスレに不用意に闖入してしまったことはあらためて謝ります。とくに疑問を呈するさいに、予見とか嫌味をまぶしたのは余計でした。こんな俺を追っ払わずにきちんと相手をしてくれたひとたちには感謝します。
Commented by せりゅ at 2007-09-25 11:16 x
これは僕の「憶測」になりますが、テレ朝って反日、親中韓のイメージなんですよね。
そのテレ朝でなぜこんな報道がされたのかが気になって仕方がありません。

話の流れとまったく関係ありませんが、なぜこのブログのコメント欄は意味のわからないカタカナ語が多いんでしょうか?
一般生活でイデオロギーとかリテラシーとか使う人を見たことがありませんw

あと、この手の編集でどうにでもなる内容の放送は相当多いと思います。
だいぶ前にも書いたけど、阪神大震災で神戸の家はほとんど全部倒壊したか火事になったと思ってる人は多いはず。
Commented by 通行人 at 2007-09-25 13:20 x
 テレ朝と言っても、番組の方針などでその政治的ポジションはかなりのぶれがあるよ。TVタックルもテレ朝だし、このスーパーJチャンネルでもこの手の内容の放送は何回もされている。ただスタジオでコメントをする立場の人は、左翼系の人が多いけどね。

 俺が個人的に驚いたのは、マスコミとかメディアに書かれていることを真に受ける人がそんなに多いのかと思ったこと。当時の記憶をたどるなら、この記事は一時的に盛り上がっただけで、それほど大きい話題ではなかったよ。そのうちに悪ふざけした人が下の円グラフに「日本を攻撃する」と付け加えただけ。
 しばらく経って、下の円グラフが捏造だと騒ぎ出して、この画像すべてが嫌韓による捏造だと騒いでいる韓国人がでてきた。当時見ていた俺からすると、どうして今頃こんな的外れな反論をしてきたんだろうと思ったんだけど、更に驚いたのは「右翼による捏造だったんですね」と同調する人が現れたこと。

 もうちょっと、メディアを信用せずに、自分で裏付けしてみる人はいないのかな?ネットで検索すればその背景を読み取るくらい今の時代難しいことでは何だよ?それこそリテラシーの問題ですよ。
Commented by sakuya at 2007-09-25 13:53 x
どこの国にも、憤慨のあまり、勢い余ってしまう人はいると思いますので、日本の行き過ぎた嫌韓サイトの多くもその種のものなんだろうな~と思っています。そうなっちゃう気持ちはわかりますけれども、notki様が憤慨されているように、韓国人から見てウソ・言いがかりと思えるようなものは、韓国の人たちに申し訳ないです。韓国の政府や新聞の、
日本に対する主張や態度に嫌悪感を抱いている多くの日本人たちにも、そのような根拠の怪しい「嫌韓ネタ」は迷惑だろうと思います。だから、私は日本の嫌韓ネタの捏造を教えてくれるサイトは貴重だと思います。情報提供していただいたnotki様、どうもありがとうございました。
そもそも、韓国が反日だと言うのは、そのような根拠の怪しいネタなどなくても、「日帝の七奪」という言葉が使われている(のですよね?これもnotki様教えていただけると嬉しいです)ことや、ごく普通に「日王」と主要紙が書いたりするだけで、もう十分過ぎるほど明らかでしょう。
Commented by いつまで反日? at 2007-09-25 21:33 x
「韓国はなぜ反日か」で紹介されたこの画像も嫌韓による捏造か?
http://aog.2y.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=1550
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-25 23:06 x
>通行人さん
あのー初歩的な質問なんですけど、今回のインタビュー画面とグラフ円は最初に記事としてあがったときからいまの「ビフォア・アフター」形式(?)だったんですか? 誰かがふざけてあとからグラフ円に「日本を攻撃」と加えたのは理解できたんだけど、いつのタイミングでいまのような(インタビュー×2種類)+(グラフ円×2種類)という体裁になったのかがよくわからなくて。

ネタとして誰かがこういう並べかたをしたということなんでしょうか。
Commented by 通行人 at 2007-09-26 09:47 x
 ビフォーアフターの意味がよくわからないけど、単に韓国のサイトが「嫌韓の捏造を立証する」ために今のような画像を持ち出してきただけでしょう。Googleで画像検索すればもう少し他の画像も見つかりますよ。おなじくウェブ検索すれば、当時の2chのスレッドやブログも見つかりましたよ。http://news18.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/dqnplus/1118057602/(過去ログ)http://kuyou.exblog.jp/1997769/(散歩道)

 時代背景を少し説明すると、核問題で米北の対立が深まり、北爆を開始するのではとの観測があがった時期です。件のJチャンネルでは緊急韓国取材で、問題の画像を含むインタビューを放送したわけです。その中で「アメリカを支持する」という意見とともに、「北朝鮮を助ける」という意見も多かったのです。そこで大部分の人は「同盟国のアメリカを裏切って北朝鮮を助けるのはおかしな話だ」と言う意見を述べています。その中でこの問題になっているコメントをした人が現れて、更にその意味不明な意見にヒートアップしたわけです。なので、そもそもこの画像は本筋の議論ではないのです。
Commented by 通行人 at 2007-09-26 09:54 x
そもそも米韓同盟は韓国を「北朝鮮」から守るためのモノであって、それに対して北朝鮮への攻撃に参加せず北朝鮮を助けると言っているのだから、その斜め上な行動に対する反応は想像に難くないでしょう。しかも「日本を相手に戦います」とまで言ってしまっているのだから、「そこでどうして日本が出てくるんだ?」の大合唱です。
 そこでしばらく経ったら「あの画像は嫌韓の捏造だ」と言った意見が韓国側から出てきたから、みんながお口あんぐりな状況なのです。
Commented by no_tenki at 2007-09-26 20:30
全部返事できなくてごめんね

>どさくさに紛れて「子供が書いた反日の絵」を否定してんじゃないよ^^
それも大して調べてもないくせに(ネットだけ見て)「韓国はこうだ」と断定しているだろう?インチョンの中学校のらしいが韓国の子供ってのは御幣がありゃあしないか?インチョンだけにしてみてもその絵のテーマは異常なのに。

>どこがありえないのか説明、証明すればいいと思うが。
常識や感覚的に言われのないことを断定しまくってるので当惑せざるをえない。
君たちは韓国に来たことないだろ?実体験で証明してみてはどうかね。

出かけますがまた来ます(管理人の台詞じゃねえなw)
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-26 22:12 x
↑あ、notkiくんだ☆ エ、それだけ?(笑)

>通行人さん/いろいろありがとうございます。ただ個人的には青年の発言の正当性には相変わらずあんまり興味がないんです。個人の信条とか主義とかはひとそれぞれでしかないと思ってるんで(すんません)。

俺が「ビフォーアフター」と書いたのは、(おそらく)出所が違う「2枚のインタビュー画像」と「2枚の円グラフ」がそれぞれあたかも「捏造後」→「捏造前」であるかのように並べられてひとつのストーリーでくくられていることに対してでした(事実、エントリーの元ネタのブログではそのように紹介されちゃってます)。

だって、これって極めて「巧妙な配置」ですよ。俺のようにまったく予備知識なしで見たら同じペアだと誤認しますもん。俺の場合「円グラフのウソ」はすぐに見抜けたんだけど、俺がハマッた罠はだったら「インタビュー画像」の方も同じ手法で捏造が行われたと踏んでしまったこと。(ペアだと思ってるから)
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-26 22:13 x
で、「誰が」とか「その意図」とかへの興味が低かったせいで「どうやったら捏造か可能か?」という技術的なことに関心を向けてしまったため、インタビューの2枚の画像と円グラフの2枚の画像の「出所がバラバラである可能性」に気づくのが遅れたわけです。

よもや2枚のインタビュー画像が「どちらも(ある意味)本物」という仮説はさすがにすぐには浮かばなかったなー(笑)

通行人さんの情報によればこの手の画像はネット上に点在しているようのなので、こんな仮説も立てられますね。

テレビ局がインタビュー字幕のバージョン違いを作成→両バージョンのキャプ画がバラバラにネットに流出→他方で『日本を攻撃』が加えられたグラフ円のキャプ画も流出→韓国人がそれらをネットで偶然収集→「嫌韓による捏造」だろうと「推測」してネットで公開。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-26 22:15 x
これが真実だと言い張るつもりはないけど、もしこれに近いことが起きたのだとしたら厄介なことだよなー。

最終的に韓国側から「捏造」だと勘違いされてしまうような字幕の付け替えをしたテレビ局の軽薄さとか、円グラフのようにいくら「ネタ」であってもひとたび流出すればただの「捏造」にしか見えないこととか、「反日」を笑うつもりでキャプった画像が結果「反日」に与してることとか、いろいろ考えさせられる。

今回の画像をぜんぶ「嫌韓の捏造」だと間違って「推定」しちゃった韓国人がいたとしても、俺は笑えないけどな。難しいよコレ。(なんか興味のポイントがずれててすみません)
Commented by くぁz at 2007-09-27 03:44 x
また、ノーテンキ君は過剰に反応する(^3^)y-~~ 俺は「韓国は~」なんて言ってないじゃん。事実は事実として認めようよ。

>ネットだけ見て

ネットは便利だね。翻訳してくれる人までいるから。
http://plaza.rakuten.co.jp/kuroganeyashiki/diary/200506170002/

6/7から1ヶ月もやってたんだね 何の問題にもならず
http://blog.goo.ne.jp/pandiani/e/a4968c20de38e9e4f5ac372ce9c804f9
Commented by at 2007-09-27 04:14 x
>ところであの「日本に核ミサイルでも打ち込むべきなんだ!」とオッサンかいう動画あるじゃない。放送されたやつ。それ一応韓国語を言ってるんだけど日本語吹き替えがされてて何言ってるか先っちょしか聞こえないんだよね。だから検証ができなかった。字幕つけてるのに吹き替えまでしなくていいじゃんーと思った。

眼の不自由な方の事は考えないのですか?

>それが少し気持ち悪かった。
>今言ったような強引な感じの番組を連想したので
まるで発言内容を検証させないように吹き替えで上書きしたと邪推してませんか
じゃなきゃこんな感想は出ないと思いますが。
Commented by いつまで反日? at 2007-09-27 07:39 x
>no_tenki氏
>君たちは韓国に来たことないだろ?実体験で証明してみてはどうかね。
考え方が間違ってないか、我々は本やHPで韓国を調べた結果を信用しているだけ。
それらをガセネタだというなら韓国人が否定材料を出すべき。
本の著者、HPの管理人が内容を証明するべきで、我々は本屋HPを読むだけだよ。
韓国を調べれは調べるほど韓国へ行く気にならないんですけど。
Commented by せりゅ at 2007-09-27 09:09 x
>能天気さん
>君たちは韓国に来たことないだろ?実体験で証明してみてはどうかね。
こんなことを言われても、僕は怖くて韓国に行けません。
多くの国では危険区域として指定されてる国だし。

↓を読んで、ヨハネスブルグに行きたくなくなるのと同じです。
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%A8%E3%83%8F%E3%83%8D%E3%82%B9%E3%83%96%E3%83%AB%E3%82%B0
Commented by いつまで反日? at 2007-09-27 10:35 x
>せりゅ氏
no_tenki氏は「海外旅行へ行く前に下調べはするな」といいたいようです。
Commented by 通行人 at 2007-09-27 11:13 x
わはは氏
 この問題の根本は、この韓国メディアの検証能力だと思います。検証するときには一次ソースをあたるのが当然の行為です。今回はそれを怠った。何度も書くけど、元の動画を見ていればこんな記事は出てくるはずがないんです。no_tenki氏はこの人物画像の字幕の違いを指摘したけれど、元の放送の趣旨からするとこの翻訳の違いは問題になりません。先に書いたように「米韓同盟下でアメリカでなく北朝鮮を支援する」ことに対する疑問を投げかけた放送だからです。
 彼らの問題はネット上に転がっている、出所不明の画像を以て捏造だと断定したことです。もし一次ソースにあたれない場合は、それなりの検証をするべきです。画像解析ソフトを使ってもいいですし、検索等を駆使すれば当時の記事などが見つかるはずです。今回は番組まで判っているのだから、テレ朝に電話取材でもすれば、ソースの提供はしてもらえなくても捏造か否かなど判るはずです。それらを怠って自分たちでストーリーを作り上げ断罪した。これは捏造に近い行為だと思います。
Commented by 通行人 at 2007-09-27 11:36 x
 先の二枚の「日本を攻撃する」画像を、韓国メディアが意図的に並べたとは個人的には思っていません。おそらくネットで探すうちに異なる二枚の画像を見つけ、微妙に違う発言のニュアンスに着目したのでしょう。ただ、重ねて言うと、元の動画を検証していればこんな間違いは起こらなかったのです。この放送の趣旨は「米韓同盟下の韓国世論の北朝鮮への支持」であって「日本への攻撃」ではないからです。
 結局は受け手の理解能力にかかってくると思います。
Commented by せりゅ at 2007-09-27 12:54 x
ここぐらいしか書く場所が思いつかなかったので燃料投下。
昨日レッズ対全北のサッカーを最後の1分ぐらいだけ見たんですが、試合終わったが瞬間全北の選手が審判に向けて中指立てて何やら言ってました。
これ見たとき全北とやってるって知らなくて、やってる人アジア人っぽい顔してるなと思ったんですが、直後に試合結果が表示されて「全北」と。
テレビつけた直後ってこともあり、誰がやってたかはわかりませんが(ユニホームの後ろの名前を見た限り韓国人っぽかった)これは韓国国内では問題にはなっていないんでしょうか?

あー、これが有名な火病か!と思ったのは内緒ですw
Commented by いつまで反日? at 2007-09-27 14:31 x
せりゅ氏
>これは韓国国内では問題にはなっていないんでしょうか?
その程度では問題になってないとおもいます。
http://www58.tok2.com/home/letsgokorea/
有名なサイトですが、この内容に比べたら何も問題にならないよ。
たぶん「韓国はなぜ反日か」にレッズ対全北の試合が書き込まれても、
ほとんどの韓国人は「捏造だ」と言い張って終わりだと思います。


前にも書いたけど、一部捏造、一部間違いがあったからと言ってすべてを否定するのはその人の間違いだよ。
正しい部分があったらそこだけを信用すれば?
Commented by いつまで反日? at 2007-09-27 16:39 x
http://hochi.yomiuri.co.jp/soccer/etc/news/20070927-OHT1T00045.htm
少し調べてみたらこの記事があった、韓国人の感覚から察すると、反省材料にならないんだろうな、「捏造だ」「でたらめだ」「日本人に謝るもんか」で終わりそう。
Commented by せりゅ at 2007-09-27 17:09 x
>いつまで反日さん
参考サイトご提供ありがとうございます。
ただ、ワールドカップの件については選手が何か悪いことをするってのが
あまりなくどちらかといえばサポーターや審判関係がまずいってのが多かったのですが、
昨日の全北の件については選手がスポーツ選手として超えてはいけない一線を越えてた気がしたので書いてみました。

まあ、話題にならないならそんなにたいしたことでもなく韓国ではよくあることだったってことでw

>前にも書いたけど、一部捏造、一部間違いがあったからと言ってすべてを否定するのはその人の間違いだよ。

1+1=2だから、1+1×2=4だ。って主張があって、後者が間違えてるから1+1=2も間違えてる!って言ってるようなもんですねw
Commented by 嫌韓 at 2007-09-28 13:42 x
まあ韓国人に聞くアンケートで嫌いな国の堂々1位は38パーセント(実に5人に2人)を獲得して日本に決定。実にめでたい。

http://japanese.joins.com/article/article.php?aid=91404&servcode=400§code=400

模範にすべき国は?とかいうよく解らんフォロー(笑)も日本が1位なのはさすがの韓国人もちょっと嫌いというだけでは気が引けたのか。

とにかく韓国はすさまじい反日国家だと言うことは一流紙が念押ししているところです。別に気違いに嫌いだと言われてショックを受ける訳でもないけどね。いまさら韓国が反日であるわけないなんて主張は当局のプロパガンダじゃなくても日本人なら馬鹿馬鹿しくて受け入れらんだろ。

いい加減うざいからもちょっとましなことネタにしたらどうでしょうか。
Commented by じk at 2007-09-28 16:24 x
ネットって本来そういうものだよ。これだけ嫌韓の規模が大きくなったからにはデマも当然あるだろうさ。まあ、でも、日頃の行いって大事だよなあ。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-29 01:31 x
>これだけ嫌韓の規模が大きくなった←え、初耳ぃ〜(笑)

>通行人さん
通行人さんが批判しているポイントはわかります。ただ通行人さんの言う「韓国メディア」とか「彼ら」とかが、俺ん中でいまいち像を結ばないんですよね。それって韓国の大手メディアのことですか? 反日サイト? 今回のネタ元のブログ? それともぜんぶ?

もし韓国の大手メディアが検証なしで今回のようなことを声高に主張してるのだとしたら(知らないけど)、それは批判に値すると俺も思います。それが一部の反日サイトだとしたら、批判する価値すらなくないっすか? だって、はなから検証する気などないからこそ「反日サイト」なんですよね?(勝手な想像)。

で、そこにたとえば今回のエントリーのブログ主まで含むのはどうなのかなと(含めてなかったらすんません)。ブログに飛んでみたけど特に「反日的」でもなく、今回の件も数ある時事ネタのひとつとしてとりあげられている感じ。まあ、独島サイトにリンクが張ってあるのでその手の関心は高いんだろうけど、でもこのブログ主、時東ぁみファンらしいし(笑)
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-29 01:32 x
しかも(notkiくんの翻訳が正しければ)「こういう画像に釣られないよう気をつけましょうね」と韓国人を戒めているようにも読める。すくなくとも日本を「断罪」したりはしてない。要はよくある「個人ブログ」の域を出てないわけで、そんなブログ主に1次ソースに当たれといってもまあ無理ですよね。(日本人の俺でもできないんだから)

でね、現実問題として個人の力で韓国政府や大手メディアのスタンスを変えさせるのは土台無理だけど、こういう個人レベルのブログにおいてなら、個人レベルで誤解を解いたり、諌めたり、批判したりすることも充分可能ですよね。もしハングルできないんならnotkiくんに翻訳頼めばいいわけだし。間に入ってもらってもいいし。
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-29 01:34 x
……って、そういう前向きな話には一切ならないみたいね、嫌韓って。

そういう努力はしたくないと。元はと言えばアチラが悪いんだからと。で、現実とつながってない安全地帯(ネット上)で延々「嫌悪」を増幅させつづけるだけっていう。う〜ん、やっぱりわからんわ。なに目指してんの?

(あっ、後半部分は通行人さんに言ってんじゃないっすよ。 つーか、通行人さんて「嫌韓」じゃなくて普通に「韓国に批判的な人」にしか思えないんだけど、俺の誤解?)
Commented by no_tenki at 2007-09-29 07:37
また斜め読みで一部にだけ返事する形で悪いですが;

日本が嫌いな国一位になるってのは頷けますよ。
だってまだ色々なしこりが残ってませんし。

何よりも日本国民が支持する政治家の現行が韓国人には許せないことだったりする場合が多いらしいんで、過去のことのせいじゃなくて、現在進行形で日本を嫌ってるのは事実かと。

でも皆さんの言っている(たとえば嫌韓全般)過剰したマイナスイメージとしての反日とは別物かと。そもそも嫌いな国1位だったらそれは「嫌日」ではないですかね。
Commented by no_tenki at 2007-09-29 07:44
残ってませんし。 → 残ってますし  現行 → 言行

あとはたのむ > 突っ込みコメント担当の方々
Commented by いつまで反日? at 2007-09-29 10:33 x
>何よりも日本国民が支持する政治家の言行が韓国人には許せないことだったりする場合が多いらしいんで、
韓国人の感覚で何がどう許せないのか説明をして欲しいものだな。
ただし、韓国人が主張する九割捏造、歪曲されたでたらめ歴史と日本人の主張が合わないから許せないというのは却下だけどな。
Commented by まあなんというか at 2007-09-29 14:12 x
>わはは

お前は本当にどうしようもないやつだなぁ・・・。
私が去るのが早すぎたようだ。

相変わらず低質な憶測満載だし、自分の書いた短い文章の中で矛盾しており、結局嫌韓批判したいだけにしか見えん。どこかで嫌韓にいじめられたのか?

面倒だから一々説明しないが、おまえは嫌韓を批判するには全く力不足だ。管理人さんよりも数十倍ひどい。一から勉強しなおして来い。


まずは、ここを眺めることだな。
http://japanese.joins.com/
http://www.chosunonline.com/
これらは韓国の3大新聞のうち二つの日本語版、韓国人が接する言論だ。アクセスTOPに出てくる記事は嫌韓が興味を持っているのだろう。最低でも1週間ぐらいかけて古い記事も読むのがいい。no_tenkiは「けっ、また朝鮮日報かよ」みたいな反応を示す(no_tenkiからみれば極端な意見が多いのであろう)事を付け加えておくが、確かな韓国人ソースの文章だ。
Commented by まあなんというか at 2007-09-29 14:13 x
それが終わったなら、
http://www.enjoykorea.jp/
の掲示板だな。日韓のコミュニケーションの一端を見ることが出来る。嫌韓や反日については「伝統」や「時事ニュース」で多くふれることが出来る。2chと同じように匿名掲示板であることを差し引いて読め。

これらのサイトは嫌韓の主観で成立したものではなく、それ故に嫌韓や反日の中身を知るのに役に立つ。

これも終わったら、このブログをもう一度最初から読んでみろ。
流し読みせずに1行に1分かけて意味をよく理解しながら読むのだぞ。
わからないところがあったらちゃんと調べろ。
リンクがあったら飛んでいって端から端まで読んで来い。

お前の場合は、多分ここまでやって、やっとスタートラインにたてるぐらいだ。
あとは論理構築能力が必要だが・・・
まあがんばれよ。

さらば
Commented by わはは at 2007-09-30 22:43 x
↑「さらば」って、けっこう好き☆

ごめん、「嫌韓」とかって自称嫌韓のひとたちが自己規定できるほど一枚岩の概念じゃないと思うんで(興味のポイントも手法もモチベーションもみんなバラバラじゃん)申し訳ないけどスルーさせていただきますね。

俺は「国」にしろ「人」にしろ(結果として嫌いになることはあっても)積極的に嫌いにいく(そのためにいろいろな情報で裏付ける)っていう手法が理解できない(というか、そういうことをする必要を感じない)ので、君が挙げてくれたような事例も(見てないけど)俺が日常を生きていくうえで知る必要があることだとは思わないし、そんなスタートラインに立つつもりもないっす。

ここから先は個人のチョイス。君とは人生観が違うだけなので、これ以上君と言い合いしてもしょうがないよ、たぶん。

最後に君の言いたかったことをちゃんと聞けてよかったとは思うよ。ただnotkiくんもこのエントリーには興味を失っちゃったようだし、これ以上はやめときましょう。

Commented by まあなんというか at 2007-10-01 01:18 x
だから、お前はなにもわかっていないと言うのだ。

嫌韓が「(韓国を)積極的に嫌いにいく」人たちだと断じて、「その手法が理解できない」と、自分の方が賢いと思っているのなら、甚だ勘違いだ。お前は「嫌韓」という言葉に騙されている。(嫌韓の枠は曖昧だから、「自分の思っている嫌韓はその枠の中の人間だ」、と言いたいかもしれないが、その境目をお前は理解できていない。他人と意見を交換するのならば、もう少し共有できる言葉を選ばなくちゃダメだ。)

お前の選択肢だから勉強しない、というならかける言葉もないが、日常生活には必要なくとも、他人を批判するなら当然必要になる行為だ。反日だろうが、嫌韓だろうが、お前だろうが必要だろう?
嫌韓諸氏は、お前より遥かに勉強してるし(そうでない者も居るが)、お前より遥かに能動的に「積極的に嫌う」という話ではなく、もっと建設的な方向に動いている(そうでない者もいるが)。お前は無知のまま的外れな批判をしていてはいけないよ。

最後に一つ、お前は騙されやすい人間だという事を覚えておくが良い。下手な宗教に嵌らぬよう気をつけろ。

ちなみに俺は嫌韓ではない。

ではまたな
Commented by わはは at 2007-10-01 03:25 x
↑さっき「さらば」って言ってたじゃんかよ〜(笑)

ちょっと個人的な疑問や意見を述べただけで、こんなにボロカス言われるとは思わなかった。(唖然)

なにをいきり立ってんのかよくわかんないけど、「嫌韓」の正体が曖昧なのでどうやって関わっていいかわかんない……って書いたことをなんでそんなにややこしく捉えんの? 被害妄想入ってない? 

君を含めて誰かを特定して書いたつもりもないし、「よく勉強してるひと」を批判した覚えもない(通行人さん宛のレスで「ちゃんと批判できるひとは俺的には嫌韓じゃない」とも書いた)。でも「そうじゃないひともいる」って自分で書いてんじゃん。
Commented by わはは at 2007-10-01 03:26 x
「積極的に嫌いにいく」というのも、俺自身には「反日」とか「嫌韓」に関してこうしたいという「立場」がないので「嫌韓」にまつわる情報を主体的に仕入れるつもりはないと個人的な立場を表明しただけ。(言葉のあやくらい察してくれよ)

「お前は宗教に騙されやすい」なんてそれこそ「憶測に基づく中傷」以外のなにものでもないから気をつけてね。ひとからされて嫌なことをひとにしないようにね。

ちなみに俺は賢くなんかないよ。本来ならここはスルーしとくべきだった。
Commented by まあなんというか at 2007-10-02 00:42 x
「ボロカス」とは心外だな。
お前の間違いを正す方向性を示してやったつもりなのだが。

それにもう一つ、もしかしたら指摘せねばならないことがあったのかもしれん。
「お前は宗教に騙されやすい」などとは書いておらんな。
お前は騙されやすい人間だ、という事は、「わかりやすい捏・・・(お前の名誉のために省略してやろう)」など、数個の文章から推察できる(本気で書いていた、と仮定してだがな。)その上で騙されぬよう注意したのだが、お前はま~た下手な中傷を加えようとして、自爆しておる。「お前は宗教に騙されやすい」との文意の違いはお前に理解できるのであろうか。
お前はまず、読解力に難があったのかもしれん。


> 本来ならここはスルーしとくべきだった。

まあそういうことだろうと俺も思う。お前が何者になるのかはわからんが,
精進しろ。
Commented by 通行人 at 2007-10-02 00:53 x
 私個人について言えば、嫌韓でも親韓でもないですね。元々は外交問題全般に興味があるので、その中で対韓問題について言及しているに過ぎません。ただ、私は国益重視が持論ですし、その国益重視を実現しようとする場合、必ずしも韓国に融和的な政策を採るべきだとは思っていません。なので、ここの管理人さんを含めた韓国メディア全般(保守系メディアを含む)に対して批判的なのは確かです。
 わははさんの「1次ソースに当たれといってもまあ無理ですよね。」にはやや批判的です。個人の能力の限界は認めつつも、他者を批判するならば、その妥当性を自ら検証してから公開するのは当然ではないでしょうか?公開してからその論理のスキを突かれて、素人だからというのは違うでしょう。
Commented by 通行人 at 2007-10-02 00:57 x
 嫌韓が定義されたものではないというのは同意です。実際にかなりの知識や思想的な幅があるのではないでしょうか。数年前までの韓国ウォッチサイトのキーワードに「韓国を知れば知るほど嫌韓になる」と言うのがあります。今でも韓国の情報は多くないですが、少し前までは皆無と言ってもいいくらいなかったです。それが民主化以降にそれなりに報道するようになり、それに伴って韓国という国が見えてくるようになりました。見えるにつれ、その動向に反発する者も多くなったというのが現実でしょう。感情的、論理的、文化思想の違いから反発するなど、人それぞれではないでしょうか?「嫌韓」とひとくくりにするのに無理があると思っています。ただ一つ言えることは、何かの思想に基づいて嫌悪の感情を抱くと言うよりは、韓国からの情報や行動に対して反発するといった傾向が強いです。
Commented by 通行人 at 2007-10-02 01:03 x
 韓国メディアに関して言えば、日本関連の記事にかかわらず、検証能力が低いように思います。ここで書いたことと関連するならば「裏を取る」作業です。発行部数No1の朝鮮日報でさえ、日本で言うスポーツ紙や日刊紙レベルの記事を書く時があります。専門家に少しでも訊いたらな、間違ってもそのような解釈は出ないだろうと記事の書き方をすることがあります。「事実」に対する「解釈」は立場や物の見方の違い変化します。ただ、その根本である「事実」は普遍なものです。いろいろな場面でこの「事実」と「解釈」を(意図的に)混同させています。これらの論理展開の仕方が、どこから来るのか?個人的には韓国人の「ものごとの考え方」を疑っていますが、日本人を納得させるのに乏しいことは確かです。
Commented by わはは at 2007-10-04 03:06 x
通行人さん、丁寧なレスありがとうございます。嫌韓素人には大変わかりやすいテキストでした。

日本人が「韓国」を語るということは「日本」を語ることの裏返しとも言えるわけで、「嫌韓」が出現したのは「日本人」であることに(よくも悪くも)自覚的なひとが増えた(あるいは自覚のしかたが変質した)のかなと勝手に想像してましたけど、単純に隣国からの情報が増えたと解釈するほうが正しそうですね。

もうちょっと書きたいこともあったんですけど、このエントリーも店じまいっぽいので俺も次のエントリーに移動します。

>韓国人の「ものごとの考え方」

個人的な経験でいうと、日本人より「ラテン度が高い」と睨んでます(笑)
Commented by みねふじこ at 2007-10-04 09:12 x
ラテン系・・・自分にも他人にも甘い
韓国人・・・自分や家族友人(ウリ)には甘いがそれ以外特に日本人にはとことん厳しい
Commented by ぐぁ at 2007-10-21 23:05 x
村上龍のメルマガJMM内の韓国レポートでこのネタが取り上げられていました。

二つめの「捏造」が韓国のネットでも話題になって、逆に脈絡なしに「日本を攻撃する」と付け加えるのがネタになっているんだとか。
このエントリのタイトルもそのネタだったんですね。
ひょっとして、nonkiさんが発祥元?
Commented at 2007-10-25 23:55 x
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なんで円グラフの無回答の欄が空欄なのかね?
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